Are you a business owner looking to solve your need for more (and more consistent) inbound leads? You’ve probably heard about different options, from Home Advisor/Angie’s to Google Ads to SEO. Which of these, is the best for your business? Do some deliver a better ROI than others?
The team at 99 Calls is often asked to help small businesses devise a strategy to deliver a lasting lead flow. Over the years, they have been trusted to create and run smart, digital marketing campaigns.
Which option or combination of approaches is right for you? Take this 5-10 minute quiz to find the right lead generation option for your business.
Pssstt…don’t forget to hit submit!
Depending on your business goals, one or a combination of the following options will be recommended to best generate leads for your business:
Google Ads PPC allows you to pay your way onto the first page of Google! PPC ads are our fastest but priciest lead generation option. We recommend this option for all customers who want fast, quality leads, and to those who wish to supplement their long-term SEO strategy.
Local Service Ads (Google Guaranteed) is a pay-per-lead advertising platform that connects local businesses with people who search on Google for the services they offer. These ads appear at the very top of relevant search results above other text ads and display a green check mark. We recommend these to businesses that have lots of great reviews on their Google Business Profile.
Organic SEO is the long-term and most cost-effective approach to lead generation. 99 Calls’ SEO services utilize a lead generation website. Included in the low monthly fee are assistance with online reputation management and an integrated dashboard with a mobile app.
Database Reactivation is best for contractors who provide routine service to their clients or contractors who have been in business for many years. If you have a list of old contacts or clients that could be happy customers again, this is your option!
Email Marketing and Lead Nurturing is an excellent strategy to deploy with your lead sources. Although this doesn’t create leads, it will help you convert the leads you receive and help you build valued relationships.
We’re all looking for an advantage, a way to stand out, get noticed and get more leads. You may be surprised to know that the best practices for ranking on a desktop search are the very same that will get you ranked for voice search. This is the newest angle that telemarketers are using to convince businesses that if they don’t suddenly hire them to optimize their website for voice search, they will be left behind.
Here’s the thing. We have been writing about voice search since 2019 and the strategies have not changed, but have become more understood. What’s more, if you are using best practices for ranking a website on the first page of Google, you are already optimized for voice search. Why? Because typing a query on your phone, iPad or computer is almost the SAME THING as speaking your query to Alexa, Google, or Siri.
Example: You are having a dinner party this weekend and you just spilled red wine on your dining room carpet. What is your first action? Try to clean it up yourself. If that fails, you’ll go to your device and type or speak “Carpet cleaner near me” or “Carpet cleaning company in (your town)” or “spot removal contractor”. A well-positioned carpet cleaning company is going to come up in a search, regardless of whether you typed or spoke the keywords. And your query is the keywords.
Companies try to make this concept sound complicated, but it really isn’t. I’ll do this experiment now, live and share my results:
First, I’ll engage Siri. Speaking, “Carpet cleaner near me”, prompts Siri to produce the following suggestions on Apple Maps:
I personally prefer to use Chrome, even on my mobile phone. When I open the Chrome browser on my iPhone speak, “Carpet cleaner near me”. Here are Siri’s suggestions:
From the suggestions offered on my iPhone above, I will click the top entry, “carpet cleaner near me”. Here is what comes up. I have placed the long thread side by side below:
With the long screenshot placed side by side, you can see the way the page rolls. Above the images, I was first shown images of carpet cleaning machines. But Google recognized my intent (finding a contractor to remove the wine stain from my carpet) and made suggestions.
Looking at the results, you will first notice the two Google Guaranteed paid search results. Also known as LSA (Local Search Ads), Google Guaranteed services are offered by 99 Calls and are probably the most cost-effective paid ads available, as long as a business can pass the rigorous verification process.
Next, you’ll see the maps section, including a sponsored map placement in the top spot. Next on the page are the organic results (this is the section that requires great SEO practices to be found). There are a couple of local carpet cleaning businesses found in this section as well as some directory entries like Angie’s and Yelp.
Now what if my search was done on my phone without asking Siri? What if I simply type the same keywords into my Chrome browser? Here are the results that come up:
Look familiar? It should! Yes, try this at home. You will find that voice search and typing your search into a browser will yield the same results. Paid ads will be found the same, whether the business is using Google Guaranteed or Google Ads.
Now I’ll conduct the same search on my desktop computer.
Of course, the larger desktop monitor provides greater depth because of the larger screen. Still, the same companies are coming up on the first page of the search.
Here’s the Question Businesses Should be Asking:
“So if the same practices for producing great SEO will yield results for voice search as they do with typing in questions and keywords, what are these practices and how can I rank my business when customers are searching for my services?”
The same advice that was given back in 2019 in this blog is still relevant today. I’ll add a couple more that are also important. Below are the best practices for getting found in any type of online search:
Format your content to be featured in snippets (use headers, lists, and short paragraphs)
Create content based on commonly asked questions in a conversational tone
Get more 5-star reviews! If you don’t have many dozens, make this your top priority
Make sure your site is designed for mobile-first indexing (they all should be by now)
Include relevant local information to show your viewers (and Google) that you’re local
Keep content simple and clean
Get built for speed. Landing pages should load within two seconds.
I’d like to add, “It’s that simple”, but the reality is, ranking in any form on searches is tough stuff. As you can see from the examples above, there are many more paid positions on the first page of search results. Google Guaranteed and Google Ads PPC are taking the most coveted positions. This is true no matter how you search. The truth is, trying SEO practices, even mastering them all, will not yield the same results (and by results, if you’re a contractor, I mean leads) as they did in recent years. In order to get found and get called with enough frequency to stay afloat, businesses need to utilize other strategies and a lot more of their marketing budget to paid ads. For more information on how the first page of Google has (evolved or devolved – you decide) over time, see this article, entitled The Incredible Shrinking First Page of Google.
For more information on SEO, ranking with keywords and voice searches, and pay-per-click or pay-per-lead marketing, call the experts at 99 Calls!
3 Mistakes Contractors Should Avoid as the Slower Season Begins
4 Strategies to Implement in 2023
As colder weather rolls in, many contractors begin to pull back on their marketing efforts, but the winter is a great time to do just the opposite! While the demand for many services slows down between November and February, there are still many benefits of holding your marketing efforts steady.
1. The winter months may not bring in the highest volume of leads each year, which will allow you more time to focus on other aspects of your business, including marketing.
The winter months are a great time to beef up your SEO!
Add fresh content to your website like photos, videos, and blog posts.
Confirm that all information on your website and online listings are up to date and make any necessary updates.
This will help your website rank higher when warmer weather comes back around, making it easier for potential customers to find you.
This is also a great time to figure out your game plan for your Google ads campaign for the upcoming year.
Think about what budget you would like to set, what services you want to target, and what areas you want to focus on marketing in.
Google Local Service Ads, or Google Guaranteed offers an additional avenue to show off your business on the first page of Google. LSA is a pay-per-lead program which offers the benefit of a lower lead cost than pay-per-click advertising. If you begin now, your campaign will be further optimized for your busier months!
If you have a database of “old” leads that you aren’t doing anything with, you’re missing out on potential revenue! Reactivation campaigns are a great, low-cost way to book more jobs at a fraction of the price of a new lead.
Get ahead of your competitors and utilize your winter months wisely by focusing on your marketing efforts while you have the time. Using multiple methods of lead generation may seem daunting. Luckily, companies like 99 Calls can help you manage your marketing efforts and get a return on your investment!
3 Marketing Mistakes to Avoid
Fall marks the beginning of the slower season for many contractors. The period between Mid November through the New Year yields far fewer consumers looking to remodel, move or expand. People are gearing up for the holidays and the new year ahead. Add to that the uncertainty that COVID has unleashed, and the supply chain issues that have slowed the market even further, and you may be looking at a lean winter.
There are several common mistakes that contractors make when tighter times approach. It may seem to make sense to cut back, lay off and lay low to avoid any unnecessary expenses, but savvy contractors utilize these quieter months to build. This keeps revenue channels open and puts businesses in a prime position to enjoy exponential growth when the hot season begins.
Top Three Slow-Season Mistakes:
Scale way back on marketing – It might seem prudent to cut your marketing budget as the season comes to a close. However, when the number of booked jobs on the schedule begins to decrease, this is an excellent time to review your marketing strategy and trim out the efforts that aren’t yielding results.
If you are losing money on print, it may be time to pause or halt that marketing.
If you are paying more for leads that you are making in jobs, it may be time to find a new lead company. There are lead generation businesses that only charge for their performance, meaning the leads they actually produce.
Google Ads may also be a viable short-term option for increasing lead volume into the winter. The team at 99 Calls is still seeing a 15 – 20% conversion rate on Google Ads campaigns. Google Ads marketing allows contractors to target specific services in selected areas so that you can get more done with a smaller budget.
There are plenty of opportunities there to gain some leads, win new jobs, and keep your team on the payroll.
Cut back on labor – Because there is a general shortage of qualified, motivated laborers in the workforce nationwide today, if you are lucky enough to have them on your team, now is not the time to furlough or lay them off.
Do what you can to keep those smaller jobs coming in, even if at lower profit margins to keep your valued workers gainfully employed.
We all prefer the big jobs and/or recurring business, but those smaller gigs often lead to larger, more valuable jobs in the future.
Not only are you contributing to your employees’ livelihood, but you are building trust and loyalty. See #1 above for ideas on getting those smaller, one-off jobs to keep your calendar full and your people working.
Take it easy and chill for the winter – It may be tempting to take a long winter nap, but here are a couple of things to do before you decide to take that much-needed vacation or rest after a busy summer.
Take a look at your SEO efforts. Are you promoting the services that you offer in the winter months now? It takes time for new content to get indexed and start ranking on Google. Now is the time to promote the services you want to offer in February and March.
Contact current customers and offer a discount when they book winter services.
Plan your 2022 budget. What are your goals for the new year in terms of growth, revenue, advertising?
Take time in the slower weeks ahead to review what’s working, what isn’t and see where you can trim the fat.
Once you’ve got these things in place, take a quick break – you’ll be recharged and ready to reap the rewards of your efforts!
If the thought of laser-focusing your marketing dollars and finding low-cost, high-value leads seems out of reach at the moment, consider trying the bundle program with 99 Calls. For a $349 price tag, you’ll get set up on SEO marketing which will grow over time, and a Google Ads campaign that can start working for you immediately.
Part 2 in the Series: Importance of Building High Quality Reviews on GBP
by Diane Lovine and Dipa Gandhi
We’ve learned the importance of having lots of high quality reviews on your business profile. More and more, business owners need to build a high volume of positive reviews to help them rank online and stand out among their competitors. Reviews can make or break a business.
The challenge is getting your customers to leave positive reviews on your site.
Unhappy customers are ten times more likely to leave negative reviews about a business than highly satisfied customers are to leave positive reviews. How can businesses motivate happy customers to leave positive reviews for them?
Ask on the Spot
Service businesses can equip their field agents with tablets that can be used to prompt customers to log onto their Google or Yelp account to leave a review on the spot once each job is complete. When customers are asked to leave a review sometime in the future, they often forget and it becomes inconvenient.
Some businesses choose to hand out their business card after the job is complete with a QR code that takes customers directly to their Google Business Profile (GBP) link, or any other review site, to write a review. Providing a QR code is a quick and easy way for customers to leave a review.
Make it Simple
Some lead companies now offer comprehensive solutions for reputation management and can set you up on a system that automatically sends links to Google upon completion of each job. This is often a free or inexpensive add-on service as part of a business services package.
Whether you pay a service that sends links to your customers or you send a link yourself manually, the name of the game is to make it as simple as possible for your customers to access your listings and provide a positive review.
Any time you can reduce the time spent looking for a citation or website to leave a review and eliminate the possibility of leaving a review to the wrong business, you’re increasing your chances of building more reviews.
It’s OK to send an email reminder a day or two after a job well done if you find that the customer has not left you a review. You might send another after a week or so. If you still don’t get a response, drop it for now. Persistence is great, but the last thing you want is to be a nuisance.
Follow up in 8-12 months again with a nurturing email or a promotion to stay top of mind with your customer. You want them to remember you when it’s time to have more work done. This gives you an opportunity to win their business again and another chance to build your online reputation. Lead generation companies often provide database remarketing and lead nurturing as a part of their total business growth package. Ask your 99 Calls rep for more information if this sounds interesting to you.
Initiate A Process
Be sure to request and store your customers’ information including name, email, address and cell phone number. Once each job is complete, send an email explaining that reviews are much appreciated an very helpful and include the GBP review link. Customers may prefer to leave a review on a different site such as Yelp or Facebook which is also great. Keep in mind timing is key. You want to be sure to send the email within a day or 2 after the job is complete so the customers initial reaction to the completed job is still fresh in their mind and is transmitted to the review accurately.
Along with sending an email, you may be able to save your customers even more time by offering to provide a template of a review to eliminate additional steps of trying to figure out what to write. This would also ensure the customer leaves a quality review, with content and the type of service provided rather than just a star rating.
Challenge Your Employees
Another creative way of gaining reviews is to offer incentives to your field agents. Gamefy it by offering a prize for the employees who get the most customer reviews. You don’t want to directly offer your customers incentives to leave a review on GBP as it is against Google’s policies, but an incentive for your field agent might achieve the same goal without violating Google’s policies.
No matter what method you use to gain reviews, your ultimate goal is to gain those positive reviews on a frequent basis to build trust, increasing rankings and ultimately get more leads. The key is to make it quick and simple for your customers.
In the commercial cleaning industry, getting inbound leads for recurring cleaning services are some of the most sought-after types of leads. What some business owners fail to realize is that one-time cleaning leads can be equally as valuable.
Many commercial cleaners go to their lead providers requesting lead generation solely for recurring cleaning services. Unfortunately, doing so is not an easy feat. When prospective clients are searching online for your services, they are most commonly searching terms like “office cleaning” or “commercial cleaning near me,” and not “recurring office cleaning” or “recurring commercial cleaning.” For this reason, it makes it extremely difficult to generate only these specific types of leads via SEO and Google Ads Campaigns.
We can understand the preference for recurring cleaning services, from getting more of an initial return on investment to having a steady agreement with the client for the future. The lifetime value of your recurring jobs is very high compared to jobs that are one-offs, periodic or seasonal. However, if you look at all of the benefits of accepting one-time cleaning leads, you may just see them in a new, more appreciative way.
There are many benefits of taking on one-time commercial cleaning leads, such as:
Saying “yes” to the job gets your foot in the door to get called back for more!
Often, companies are looking to try out a new cleaning service before signing on for a long-term contract. If you do an excellent job on that first cleaning, you may just land yourself a recurring deal.
Providing more one-time cleanings throughout the year will allow you to keep your good employees busy and on payroll.
These jobs can keep bringing in a good flow of revenue, even during the slower times of the year.
Many seasonal or quarterly jobs such as carpet cleaning or floor stripping and waxing have high profit margins.
Sometimes waiting for the perfect job to come along causes us to pass on the great opportunities in front of us. Next time you receive a call for a one-time cleaning service, think twice before turning that job down. Make the best of the leads that come your way, you never know what can come of it!
For more information on commercial cleaning lead generation, contact email@example.com.
Effective Lead Generation is an Investment – Not an Expense
Are you treating lead generation costs or prices per lead as monthly expenses? If so, you haven’t found the right company to partner with!
Does thinking about setting a “marketing budget” make you cringe? Do you immediately imagine your bank account balance going down, down, down? If you see your lead generation budget as a regular monthly expense, you may be wasting a lot of money! Expenses are car payments, electric bills, and internet costs. Good lead generation is an investment. Something that GENERATES revenue for your business, not an expense.
Most lead generation companies charge a flat rate per month and don’t promise anything in return. Yes, that’s probably an expense. But there are a few pay-for-performance companies out there that can prove their value to you month after month. In addition, many companies no longer require contracts, so you are free to take your investment elsewhere if you aren’t seeing the returns you were lead to expect.
Most Lead Generation May Cost You
The budget you set aside each month for online marketing is probably being considered an expense if you are lumping it in with your other costs. When times are tight, you might think your marketing “costs” should be the first to go. Then you trim other costs to save money. If you could generate reliable leads each month that turn into profitable jobs, your lead generation budget would become a necessary investment (and a sound one, at that!) If you are constantly trying to keep your monthly costs low by cutting into your lead generation budget, you are missing out on the potential to turn your service business into a cash cow. When leads become expenses are when they don’t produce measurable results.
Example: Say you have allotted $500 each month for online marketing of your remodeling business. If you hire a lead generation company that charges a flat rate of $500 each month and tells you they will promote your business online, get you onto the first page of Google and get calls coming in, but then doesn’t produce, this would be an expense.
If you hire a different company and they tell you that you’ll only pay for qualified leads that come in and you get to determine what a qualified lead means to you, you won’t be paying an expense, you’ll be investing in those customers who call you for a quote. And the higher your close rate, the more money your business will make from that marketing investment!
Return on Investment is the way businesses measure the net increase or decrease that comes from investing money. Return on investment, or ROI is the amount of revenue you bring in, minus the amount of money you invest to make it. So if you invest $500 in lead generation, and that turns into 6 qualified leads, and you win 4 new jobs, and each job is worth $1000 in profits, Your return on investment is $4000 (profits) – $500 (investment), or $3500. Imagine if you could invest $500 every month and watch it turn into $3500. Now that’s a solid investment!
Online Marketing and Lead Generation as an Investment
Customers use online searches more than any other means to find service businesses they want to hire. If you’re not there, front and center, with a great reason for them to call you for the quote, you probably won’t get called.
Good marketing entices customers to call you for a quote, which results in jobs, which means revenue for your business. When online marketing in the form of lead generation works in this way, it is considered an investment in your business. Even when times are tight, you don’t want to stop investing in good marketing, because it’s probably your best chance to build your revenue stream back up. Instead, start slow and build as you land more jobs. And don’t spend your excess profits. Keep investing in your business and watch it grow.
How to Increase Your Lead Generation ROI
So how can you spend less money per contractor lead? What is the best way to lower online marketing costs? Get seen and called more often and win more sales from your monthly lead budget!
Improve Your Visibility and Get More Calls
The more phone calls and emails you get from your monthly marketing budget, the higher the return on your marketing investment will be.
When you sign on for services for online marketing and lead generation, be sure to find a company with a complete package: Highly optimized lead generation sites that will rank well on Google, Bing, and other search engines and the ability to customize the lead generation site and listings with your unique branding.
As important as getting found is for getting calls, making your business attractive to potential customers is also critical. Entice your customers to pick up and call you by displaying high-quality photos of your work and pictures of yourself or your team on the home page. Offer a special promotion to motivate them to call you rather than your competitors.
The higher your close rate, the lower your costs per lead and the more leads you can get for the same monthly investment.
Here are the top 5 things you can do to increase your close rate, and thereby increase your returns:
Always Answer Your Phone: It seems so simple, but we see it all the time. Customers are impatient. They identify a need, search online and call the first contractor they see who looks legit. If that’s you and your phone rings, you are LOSING MONEY every time a call goes to voicemail.
Quick Quote: If you’re able to give a ballpark figure over the phone, go for it. Otherwise, schedule a visit within the next 48 hours to see the job and give a quote. Get in there before your competition.
Professionalism Pays: No, you don’t need to show up in your Sunday best, and actually, arriving in some work clothes lets potential customers know you’re a busy person who other customers already trust. Just change into a clean shirt to change and be prepared with pen and paper to take notes. Listen to what they are asking you to do, and repeat it back so they know you heard it right.
Offer Options: When you offer 2 or even three options for getting the work done, you’ll asking your potential customer not to choose between you and someone else, but between two or three price points from YOU. Offer a budget option, which less expensive materials and less expensive detail, and then one with the best quality. This also lets them know you are versatile and can work with different budgets.
Follow Up: Don’t drop an estimate and run. People appreciate a friendly reminder that you are available to schedule their job. Maybe even give them a discount if they can fill an opening you have in a given month. Persistence pays!
If you’re ready to really start growing your service business, start viewing your marketing budget as a smart investment, rather than a monthly expense, then find a quality lead generation team to make your monthly lead generation investment work for you. For more information on getting the most from your online marketing investment, give the team at 99Calls.com a call at 800-717-4669.
Turns out the cost per lead varies widely depending on the effectiveness of the marketing company you hire to run your campaigns.
Utilizing Google Ads PPC campaigns is the fastest, most versatile method of achieving a high volume of leads for service contractors. However, buyer beware; not all PPC marketing firms produce equal results. In fact, differences in performance are alarming and could mean the difference between enjoying a robust return on investment and blowing your advertising budget with little to show for it.
There is an enormous gap between average and superior Ads performance. According to a recent article by Wordstream, a trusted authority in measuring PPC conversion results, a full 25% of PPC users report conversion rates under 1%.
Unlike SEO, or organic lead generation, which takes many months to ramp up and achieve first-page placement on Google searches (and let’s be honest, if you aren’t being found on the first page, you most likely will not be found), using Google Ads PPC to generate exclusive leads yields much faster results.
Google PPC is an auction-style platform for showcasing businesses on the first page of searches. Rather than showing in the maps (GMB) section, or the highly regarded organic results section, Google PPC ads are displayed at the very top and the very bottom of the search page.
Ads are about scarcity. There is only room for 3-6 PPC ads on a page, about half posted at the very top and half at the bottom, under organic results. In order to achieve first-page placement on Google, you’ve got to be one of the top bidders. A high conversion rate is achieved when a large percentage of people who click on an Ad call for a quote (a lead). The more leads you receive for your monthly budget, the better your return on investment.
With Google Ads, contractors are bidding per click, meaning, they are telling Google what they are willing to pay each time a potential buyer clicks on their Ad. The goal is to pay the lowest Cost Per Click, or CPC that you can but high enough to make it into a top 3 position, at least for a decent percentage of the time. Google doesn’t place 3 companies there and then walk away. The top 3 are rotated throughout the day. What gets companies up there? First and foremost is being a top bidder.
Achieving visibility on a search is just one piece to the puzzle though. Equally as important are your click-through rates (CTR) and your conversion rates. Click-through rates are the percentage of times someone clicks on the link in your Ad to visit the landing page compared to the number of times your Ad is shown (aka impressions). If the Ad is compelling and relevant to what the person is looking for, the click-through rate will be higher. If your CTR is low, you will likely also have a low conversion rate.
And finally, let’s talk about conversion rates. A conversion for some industries may be the collection of information (email or phone number) from a potential buyer that can be added to a telemarketing or email nurturing list. In service contractor industries, a conversion is a lead. Better, with 99 Calls, it is an exclusive lead that is delivered either through a live phone call or email. The better your conversion rate, the more leads you will receive for your monthly budget or advertising investment.
Average Conversion Rate and Why it Matters
The average conversion rate for service contractors using Google Search PPC advertising is 2.35%. This means that out of every 100 customers who click on your Ads, only two to three will actually call you for a quote.
The worst-performing (bottom 25%) campaigns receive a 1% or lower conversion rate. One in four campaigns falls into this bottom category. In fact, nearly half of all people who use Google Ads have a conversion rate lower than 2.5%. Included in these numbers are the do-it-yourselfers who don’t think it’s worth paying the service fee to have a marketing team manage their accounts.
Imagine that your monthly Ads budget is $1000. If the average click for your industry costs $5.00, at a 2.35% conversion rate, you’d get 4-5 leads with your budget if you hire an average marketing company.
The best performing marketing businesses, those in the top 10% of all companies, are averaging an 11.45% conversion rate. If you were using one of them to manage your Ads campaign and had the same $1000 budget and click cost at $5.00 each, you’d achieve 23 leads. That’s over 5x the lead volume for your marketing dollars! That’s why conversion rate matters.
How to Maximize Your Conversion Rate
There is a bright side to Google Ads marketing. People and businesses in the know are able to achieve excellent results with PPC advertising. The best performing marketing businesses, those in the top 10% of all companies, achieve an 11.45% conversion rate. This is far better than the average performer with 5x the lead volume for the same budget.
A small study looked at 124 customers using Google Ads campaigns managed through 99 Calls with a monthly budget of more than $300. The Google Ads specialists at 99 Calls were able to use their in-house PPC advertising system to achieve an average conversion rate across all service contractor (restoration contractors, carpet cleaners, painters, landscapers, appliance repair technicians, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, etc.) industries of 20.43%. Using the same scenario above, these contractors would have achieved 40 leads per $1000 budget, 10x the average PPC customer.
With the increases in online competition, SEO alone often isn’t enough anymore for a growing service business. Many service contractors have turned to PPC advertising to increase their customer base and their revenue. However, with the huge discrepancy between top-performing PPC management firms and low performers, it’s no wonder that many companies have become frustrated with PPC. They have lost trust in Google Ads. They complain that they have burned through their budgets too quickly without results. When every dollar counts, it is crucial that contractors find a top 10% company to handle their Ads campaign. Using a trusted, experienced Google Partner to manage an Ads campaign can literally make the difference between getting one lead for every 100 clicks on your Ads or 20 or more!